"Warm floor" (TP) and dozens of topics have been created on them. But for this type of heating as "Warm Wall" (Tst.) (the same warm floor with water heating, only in the walls), there are absolutely no topics on the forum. This question is interesting to me, because I have not yet made a heating system in my house, because it is still under construction. The "Warm floor" system is not considered by me as heating for a number of reasons that I don’t even want to discuss, and all this has already been discussed in topics about TP (I want floors made of wood and cork, and TP is not the best option for this), so it remains not many options. I like the warm baseboard, in general, I found a lot of information on it for myself and made conclusions, so this option is almost ready for execution. Considered radiator heating in a low-temperature version. But in this topic I would like to discuss the "Warm Wall" option, which I am also considering.
Discussion Tst. popped up in pieces on the forum, so I moved some messages from the dialogues in which I took part in this thread so as not to start this thread on empty place. Therefore, if you suddenly come across messages in the topic that broke into the thread of the conversation, then these are messages from other sections transferred to this topic (messages are posted at the time of writing).
The main points of the Tst system. the following:
1. It is located on the walls of the house and if it is placed on the outer walls, then the heat loss to the street will increase, since the delta will grow. Therefore, the determination of the place where Tst. important, because for extra. comfort will have to be paid.
2. In TP, tubes with a diameter of 16 and 20 mm are used, but in Tst. tubes with a smaller diameter, up to 10 mm, are more efficient.
3. Since a large proportion of heat is transferred by radiation, the placement of tubes over the entire height of the wall will not be very effective, therefore, determining the height Tst. and the pitch of the heating tubes is an important point.
4. If Tst. are located on the outer walls, then accordingly the task is to find a balance in terms of the water supply temperature in Tst. and surface temperature Tst., so that, on the one hand, the effect of this type of heating is maximum, and on the other hand, a lot of heat does not go outside.
5. This system is only for houses with very warm walls and really energy efficient. I'm not sure that in ordinary houses, even with placement not on external walls, this system will be better than TP.
My level of knowledge in this area is certainly higher than an amateur one, but I am not a professional in the field of water heating, so I asked many questions only because they interested me. The discussion of this topic began just with such questions, with the help of which I tried to understand whether it is possible to organize on such heating systems as TP and Tst. stable heat transfer from the surface.
There are different tables, but they do not have the ability to correlate 3 indicators: the temperature of the coolant, the temperature of the surface of the warm floor and the heat transfer from 1 m2. All tables are made on the basis of two indicators: coolant temperature and heat transfer, and the surface temperature of heated concrete is unknown.
If the surface temperature of the heat exchanger is 30 degrees (tubes 16 mm, pitch 150 mm, pure concrete without tiles or laminate), then what will be the heat transfer from 1 m2?
Hello!
I really need help.
I make warm walls throughout the house. Problem - the walls are plastered Mn - 75 gypsum plaster. It does not transmit heat well. they say warm walls need to be plastered with cement sand mortar for better heat dissipation. It turns out incompatibility. What is the way out of the situation.
Knock down walls, a house from a porotherm, the porotherm will be damaged.
In fact, gypsum and cement plasters are very compatible. I even, when plastering walls with cement plaster, put longitudinal beacons from gypsum, since when cement plaster is subsequently applied between them, it clings to them even better than to beacons made from the same cement mixture. And for nothing then will not give a crack.
The fact that gypsum does not conduct heat well is also strange. Maybe a little worse than a cement-sand mixture, I don’t know, but firstly, the thickness of the layer above the pipe will be only 3-3.5 centimeters, is it worth bothering about what thermal conductivity is better for sand-cement or gypsum. You probably won't even feel the difference.
Just recently, I made a Leningrad one, drowned the pipe into the wall, wrapping it with thermal insulation, and sealed the gate with Rotgypsum. It was a deep groove. It turned out more than 4 centimeters above the pipe, and that, in one place, the patched up section of the wall instantly warmed up after turning on the system. Picked it up, it turns out that the thermal insulation at the junction parted a little. So I think you are worrying for nothing.
Actually, I don’t know the Mp-75 plaster, maybe it has some enhanced thermal insulation properties, well, let it stay where it is, and close the pipe with cement, otherwise it will turn out to be a little expensive with gypsum, the layer will be thick. And everything must be combined, checked.
Of course, in order to give more accurate advice, I would like a photo of at least one wall, with a circled place where the pipe is planned to be laid.
Hello!
Thank you very much for your answer. Plaster Knauf MP-75.
I'll send a photo later.
Masters say cement-sand plaster is stronger if it is applied on gypsum plaster - it is weaker, over time, it will tear it, and in a couple of years it will fall off in a layer. Two different material. and it turns out that the bottom layer is weaker. If it's the other way around, then there's no problem.
Gypsum does not transmit heat well, as the masters say.
I don't understand how you plan to put the pipe into the wall. Why did the question arose of plastering the entire wall. Let's take a closer look, and 100%, we will find a solution.
The fact that gypsum does not transmit heat well is nonsense. But so that the cement plaster does not fly off from the gypsum layer, there are several tricks: Make the notches deeper, fill the mesh more often ...
There was a case when one ... .. leveled the walls in the hammam with Rotband. In Rothbandt, the pipes are flush. The area is large, and in order not to clean everything off, I made segmented chasing and filled the grid with 9 dowels per meter. Then cement-sand plaster, waterproofing and mosaic.
No, no, I go into this bathhouse, nothing has come off in a layer.
Hello!
I eat in order.
The house was built from 44 porotherms. All walls are plastered with Knauf MP 75, as planned radiators and a gas boiler.
The plans have changed, we are installing a heat pump and heating the house will be with warm floors and warm walls.
The winding of the walls with a Rehau F 10 pipe according to the project is simply according to the porotherm, in my situation on plaster. without foil lining. Pipes are covered with cement-sand plaster. It is impossible to apply strong plaster on weaker plaster. So the question arose of how to get out of the situation on the sections of the walls where the pipes will be wound and how to plaster them
Knocking down plaster, how to knock it down gently, if it is porotherm, more precisely so that it does not crumble inside ..
Aha, it's clear now, you don't have a pipe niche. Just the same situation as in the article. Only you have paratherms, and in it it’s certainly confusing to make a normal niche, if at all real. Without a reflector is also a minus.
So it’s tempting to ask, do you need warm walls? Wouldn't one warm floor be enough? After all, if you lay a pipe now, you will have to thicken the wall by at least 3-4 centimeters. For greater reliability, you can go through the gypsum with a hydrophobe, that is, with a moisture-resistant primer, then stuff the mesh, then put the pipes, then the mesh again, as shown in the article, then apply cement plaster, and continue the top with gypsum. Such a hassle, if you think about it. Such a waste of material. I have warm floors everywhere in my log house, and nothing else, no heaters. My wife and I are very thermophilic, so that barefoot and in shorts. And quite enough, the legs do not burn. Paratherm is also a very warm material, can you leave these headaches with a warm wall?
Here's another example: The chief's hunting hall is 75 sq. m. These two are sheathed with drywall with insulation in Rokvol 10cm. Heating with underfloor heating only. Here in Tatarstan, frosts are under 30, and it is quite comfortable in the hall. I even spent the night there for a week - it's normal, it's warm.
Think again. Everything can be done. But what will it cost? And is it really necessary?
And one more important note. So I would make this construction for you, because when I do the work, I myself, as it were, turn into both a pipe and a plaster, and not a single trifle will escape me that this pipe or plaster would not like, i.e. I do everything with my soul, and if they do this to you: yes, if you want to, then you can easily fly off later.
If the master can be trusted, then I explained the procedure to you. Moreover, plaster on plaster, even gypsum on gypsum, also only on a grid, and preferably with notches.
And do not get hung up on the thermal conductivity of the plaster. This is just one indicator that affects the temperature in the room. There is also the ability to accumulate heat, heat transfer, a lot of sand indicators, in short, so many copies have been broken on the forums about this, but there is still no consensus. But the reflector (foil), I would still put.
Hello, please tell me whether it is possible to make warm walls in the house from sip panels for drywall, since cement plaster will not be there. I plan heating either on an ionic electric boiler or a heat pump. Thank you
Great. The questions are interesting, so let's think together, since I have never done anything like this before, and therefore did not have the opportunity to observe how it behaves.
1. SIP panel itself is very warm. Weakness joints, not even the joints themselves, but how well they are made during installation.
2. A reflector is needed under warm walls, which means that a reflector is attached to the surface of the panel along the area of the heating element (water pipes, infrared film, electric cable), which eliminates the installation of drywall on glue. Only for the frame.
What happens: panel - reflector - pipe or cable - profile - drywall. This means that there is an air gap between the panel and drywall, in which the heating elements are located. Air is a very good thermal insulator, and for an electrical cable, this is fraught with failure. Or keep it at a low temperature, which is pointless.
What remains is infrared film and water pipes. Infrared emitters have experienced an explosion in popularity, and are already safely fading away. The reason is that their warmth is different from the traditional one. I did and felt it myself. If you sit in such a room without movement, then it is noticeably cool, if you move, then it is warm. The water pipes remain.
Of course, they will warm up the air gap, and eventually heat up the drywall, but I won’t say how rational and economical it will be. Pipes are filled with plaster because it increases heat transfer and evenly distributes heat.
As for boilers, know-how is not for me. Many of them have already appeared. By the way, heat pumps have been known for a long time, but for some reason they have not received wide application, despite enthusiastic comments. Reason for reflection.
I installed a Russian stove with fireboxes and a fireplace in my dacha. Now I regret that I did not plan such heating in the cottage. Of course, without a boiler in the cottage it would not work, because there is a workshop and a garage and hot water, but it would be great in the complex.
Don’t ask about the Russian stove yet - there will be detailed articles with pictures and diagrams.
Good day!!! Thanks! everything is clear and concise. Then we will change the vertical to the horizontal and bang the water-heated floor under the laminate. Really the house and so will be very warm. I thought a pellet boiler at first, but it’s not to dry crackers in it, but to live and such a powerful installation may not be required. If you also understand ventilation, then the question is the same - a house made of sip panels - thermos ... you need clean and fresh air. The more I read online, the more my head spins. Air conditioning wouldn't hurt either. And yesterday I forgot to say I want to install solar collector systems for heating water. In nete they are praised as a nightingale forest ... a temperate region - Poltava. Ukraine…. Sorry if I'm stressing. Thanks
Well Slava, just like me in my youth. Anything I wanted to do. Well, I will be careful to advise something, but I will share my observations again.
1. Warm floor and laminate. In principle, it is possible: a) if the subfloor is concrete, then pipes can be put into a screed, then a self-leveling floor, and a laminate on the substrate; b) wooden subfloor on logs, plywood, reflector, infrared film and laminate on it.
I already spoke about infrared heating, now about water and laminate. Laminate flooring is certainly cool now, but still, on warm floor dries out over time. The second problem is the mobility of the laminate. Even without underfloor heating, he is damn mobile. Expands and contracts even without underfloor heating, depending on outside temperature. It is not for nothing that when laying it is necessary to make expansion joints along the walls and under the thresholds.
FROM warm floors it constricts so that somewhere it will crawl out from under the plinth.
Try digging around for a warm baseboard. There is a heating system. I did not do it myself, but I saw it in work - I liked it. Removes all of the above problems. How to insulate the floors so that it is comfortable - it will be possible to talk separately.
About boilers with different know-how. I perfectly share the desire to become independent from gas. Prices are rising, the quality is worthless, the smell, politicians warming their hands on it, in general, there are enough reasons. But in which direction to dig in search of a solution? Let's think.
Due to my advanced age, I remember well how steam heating appeared. It seems that everyone was heated with stoves and firewood, and suddenly, within a couple of years, they made Dutch women with boilers, laid pipes with batteries, and moved to Gortop for coal, and not for firewood.
The plumber became the most important person, only the secretary of the Central Committee of the CPSU was more important, and they healed perfectly, forgetting about simple ovens. For twenty years they lived without problems, and then gas appeared. So what? Two years, and everyone had gas boilers, although it was very expensive in those days. Nothing, tensed up and switched to gas. Everything.
This is what I am for. If something really worthwhile appears, then it does not need to be sought or promoted. It will crowd out what is worse in one fell swoop, and nothing can stop it. If some kind of know-how, within a couple of years, has not supplanted what was before it, then you can safely put an end to it.
Where do good recommendations and reviews come from? There are two sources, I think. The first is those who invented them, and they sincerely admire their invention. But they are experimenting, and they are in the know, and if something is wrong, they can quickly correct it. We will scratch our turnips (and this happened with the pollen boiler). The second is the recently emerged vile class of marketers. I strongly suspect that they control almost all construction forums. Their work is like this.
About ventilation. In my opinion, you're wasting your time. Well, what is a house made of SIP panels? One floor, plus a basement is possible, well, a maximum attic, but there is a separate issue.
The hood is needed only in smelly rooms (toilet, kitchen). I don’t know what and where the boiler will be, but if with a burner, then it will be at the same time a powerful hood. So there are three channels. In the rooms there will be enough vents, and a gap of a couple of centimeters under the door leaf.
Of course, you can dig about conders, but in my cottage village everyone hung them, but they rarely use them. Someone has a cold, someone is noisy. That's how they hang. All the same, after all, air as in a log house will not work.
The circulation in the house is constant, somewhere warmer, somewhere cooler, on the one hand the wind or the sun, on the other shade. This is not a high-rise building, where all the windows are on one side. The main thing is not to block this circulation.
And the forums will advise. They will say put a splint system, otherwise kranty. They also need to screw something up, and for this they need to confuse their brains so that they boil.
By solar systems I won't really say anything - I haven't used it. The only thing I would advise is to dig into the materials from which they are made. I will also say that the main element of the plate is silicon. Batteries are made from silicon oxide and from some of his insinuations. There is a low price and a quick loss of efficiency.
In short, dig in this direction, and not only on the forums. In general, it is better to find those who have been using such a system for more than three years, and talk live and touch it with their hands. My opinion is that another boom is inflating with solar panels, promising huge sales and huge money.
In confirmation of this. My classmate is the head of a company engaged in autonomous power supply. How I twisted it so that good solar panels put it in my country house. So no, I didn’t do anything. Painfully, he has a low opinion of them. And man lives by it.
As long as it's enough? Dig towards the heating of our ancestors. In my opinion, there are more chances to find a rational grain.
In general, most likely the best result will give a comprehensive solution. You just need to think about what and where to apply.
Hello!
Got out of the situation. Where the winding of warm walls was knocked down, the primer was made, glue was applied, the mesh was applied, pipes were attached to the mesh. The foil was not laid, because the foil with the mortar had poor adhesion. Plaster with cement-sand mortar up to 3 cm.
Heating - heat pump. Cooling - heat pump through pipes on the walls.
warm walls in living rooms, heated floors - kitchen, bathrooms, hall.
Well done! I have a huge request from you. I have known about heat pumps for a long time, but I have never had a chance to see the results of its work. Please remember me in winter and share your observations. I would be very, very grateful. And not only me, many are interested in such an alternative to gas.
uuuu… something to think about. thanks a lot…. I will think. a month before the start of the epic called the construction site…. If so, I'll ask with your permission. Thanks again. You have given me a lot of food for thought....
Please. Unfortunately, there is no universal solution for each specific case, so you have to think, see what others have, what they complain about, and how to fix it. Look for examples of solutions in the accessibility zone (not the Internet), and communicate, learn, compare. For example, before a new facility, I went around all the nearest residents, found out how and what, what they complain about, and what they would do differently. Interesting results are obtained. Everyone is guessing: how would it be better. What is good for one is not good for another. Draw your own conclusions and move on.
It is difficult, of course, but then, with a good result, the thought warms me all my life (I also have reviews), oh, what a fine fellow I am. And live more fun.
About complete solution. A toilet, a bathroom and a kitchen can be made on infrared radiation (cheaply), for the hall - a warm plinth and a fireplace, as an addition, and it’s beautiful, and living heat, and an extractor hood. For bedrooms water heated floor, for temperature constancy. It's like one of the options.
Hello! Thanks for presenting your experience. The picture of warm walls in my project is already beginning to emerge. In the house that I am building, the walls are made of pressed straw, which is covered with clay plaster. The pressed straw itself does not transmit heat well, therefore I do not plan to install a reflector, which I also saw in other cases.
Still thinking about pipes. metal-plastic or cross-linked polyethylene. but still I am inclined in favor of metal-plastic, although I have not yet finally decided. You pointed out a negative experience with cross-linked polyethylene, I would be grateful if you could tell me more.
And I'm also interested in the question of the coincidence of thermal expansion plastic pipes and plasters. And is it worth bothering with this issue at all.
also wondering what kind of collectors were used, Comm. fittings, were temperature sensors installed, and lastly, why is it recommended to lay pipes no higher than 90 cm from the floor?
So, first about the reflector. I think in your case it is possible without it. As you correctly noted, its main goal is to reduce the spread of heat towards the street.
The main thing here is not even the foil itself, but the insulator under it. You have an insulator, it seems, and so excellent. Although there are discussions on the forums about infrared radiation, which is precisely reflected by the foil, I have never found data anywhere about what kind and how much of this radiation a metal-plastic pipe generates. So all this is from the category: "But Grisha said ...". Although many take it very seriously.
And further. A lot of time has passed since the writing of the article, and now I am preparing new post on environmentally friendly heaters for interior decoration. Your walls just fit into this category.
I’ll even say more, if it weren’t so tedious now, I would change my pipes for copper. Now more and more information is emerging about the harm that all these complexes, layers, ethylene and propylene are fraught with. Especially those that work with high temperatures. Our moneybags, whose houses I serve, already shy away from them like a fever.
Stretch ceilings were all torn down, plastic windows were changed to wooden ones, etc. Protect health. It's time for us to think about ourselves and our loved ones.
As for cross-linked polyethylene, unfortunately, or fortunately, I have no work experience. Just once upon a time, the question arose: what kind of pipe to lay? I then contacted good craftsmen who had such experience, with a plumbing supplier. personal belongings, who ate a dog in this business, and who knows like the back of his hand where someone does what and how about almost everything related to plumbing, and received answers that metal-plastic is better in every respect.
I didn’t go into details, because I thought that over time I would find out everything myself, but I didn’t have a chance.
As for thermal expansion, you can not bother. This question, as far as water heated floors are concerned, has never given a reason to think about it.
About the armature. There are a lot of tuev manufacturers. If possible, take Italian or Finnish, ValTec, Henko. Of ours, I mostly recommend Sanmix. There are probably others, but I prefer it. And the supplier, about which I wrote above, recommended him.
I did not install temperature sensors, but removed them. Pretty much everywhere they've been installed. They work if there is antifreeze in the system. If our rotten lime, or chlorinated water, then the sensor in it is bent or starts to ziher.
Pipes can be placed higher, but what's the point? The heat goes up. Well, if it’s simple, the batteries don’t rise above 90 cm either. Below - yes, but I haven’t seen it higher.
Yes, one more thing. Let's go back to the beginning, to the insulator. Since you do not plan it, then make sure that the heat does not go inside the wall, I'm talking about cracks in the plaster on which the pipe will be attached. If heat leaks into such a crack, then condensation can form in the wall, with all the negative consequences.
Think again about the reflector. He also remembered the proverb: “It is better to overdo than underdo.” I did not find experience in operating such heating in such walls. However, I know for sure that straw has two big enemies - rodents and moisture. From the first I use complex protection. From the second, the main protection is plaster from all sides, which must dry before the onset of frost. But if it does not completely dry out or it will remain in the wall for some time high humidity, perhaps, indeed, the appearance of condensate when heat penetrates the wall. I decided to include in the heating project a reflector made of aluminum foil pasted on plaster mesh. I don't think it will hurt much. The only thing is that it will close the wall's ability to let air through in the place where it will be laid.
Next, I began to study metal-plastic pipes. I went to the store and was surprised. The spread of prices for a pipe with a diameter of 16 mm is in the range from about 20 to 100 rubles per meter. Those. there is a difference of 5 or more times. I tried to find a review of metal-plastic on the Internet and did not find what interests me. Basically, this is a comparison of metal-plastic, polyethylene and polypropylene. Therefore, I don’t know which pipe to choose and whether such a fundamental difference can really be in quality. Either the plastic itself is different, or the glue. If this question is really relevant, then how to choose a metal-plastic pipe is not yet entirely clear.
And once again about 90 cm. Conventional heating is high-temperature. Now more and more often there is a mention of low-temperature heating. Allegedly, it is more comfortable and provides a smaller temperature difference in the plaster itself. So, with a decrease in temperature, the area of \u200b\u200bthe heated area increases. Someone says that the entire height of the wall is needed, someone at the height of human growth. But as always, what is more interesting is not what they say, but real experience, which is not given enough.
About the reflector. At the end of the last comment, I thought the same thing as you. Clay can crack from drying out, and heat will go into the wall. Foil is good, but to be honest, I find it difficult to say anything for sure. It hurts construction material yours is not standard. Most likely, after a while, you will become the first, or one of the few, who will be able to accurately answer all the questions that are now facing us.
I lived in a house made of such material in my distant youth, for a whole year, in Striya, but then my wife and I made do with a Russian stove. And what happens to the walls, I somehow was not interested. I have no idea what clay plaster is.
Or maybe it’s better to lead it along a galvanized plaster mesh? Foil, of course, is only a plus.
About the pipe. I won't say everything either. Lemen and Kalde - do not take it unambiguously. I had the “pleasure” to see how the first cracked, and the second stratified. And all because the Turkish Kalde began to use Chinese glue, and the pipe went wrong. Take Sanmix. I Lately worked only with him. The average price, and ziherov did not notice.
About the height of the pipe laying and experience. I happened to do it in the wall in three cottages. I made 6 threads under the window sill (one with a call to the window sills, and 5 entirely along the wall). In one more pool did this, the one in the article. Everything is fine and comfortable in the rooms, and the pool has not yet been launched. I tested the heating - it warms, but so far they have not been used. Only heated floors work.
And another thought about the stacking height. Much more often it was possible to do heating with warm floors, without walls. Zero height. The result is excellent. The main thing here is that the ceiling keeps warm.
Hello. I finished the repair and now I decided to install heating radiators (central heating). I advise you to buy friends in Instaltrade. I’m choosing between aluminum and steel panels, I’ll immediately ask you not to be smart about bimetal and cast iron, I know which is better without you, but the budget is limited and is only enough for steel or aluminum. Tell me, can someone put Global aluminum radiators in a centralized system, how do they behave? how much did you work?
They usually behave. As well as Monlan, kalde, Tessen, Warmica, or Teplomir. Gaskets do not dry out, the service life is enough for your lifetime. Easy to understand.
Thank you for the article! The question arose - is it not better not to loop the return line as well as the supply, so as not to air the system. Those. the descending section is short, because there are fewer risks, and is it easier for the water flow to carry the bubbles to the air vent?
Good question. The air in the underfloor heating system is a dreary thing. The answer to the question to loop or not, why and how to loop is here.
Well, with air - if there is a traffic jam, then you can drive the line. And the one that stands out from the water will come out in the boiler. If the boiler is without an automatic outlet, then you will have to rack your brains to install an air vent.
It's hard to advise without knowing the project.
Hello! I make warm walls in the house from SIP panels. Methods are different. In one room - penofol along the outer walls, a snake horizontal pipe on it, then drywall on the frame. Now overboard -2. In the room +24. Pace. coolant 50 gr. The walls are slightly warm to the touch. In another room - penofol, and on it a steel profiled sheet with a depth of 21mm. Pipes are laid in the grooves of the profiled sheet. So far, nothing has been closed. Feels much warmer from the wall than in the first room. The flow rate was reduced to almost zero, so that the pipes were a little warm and it was hot at night. I don't know yet how it will work when all this is closed. Of the benefits - easy dry installation, more heat transfer should be on the facing material from the profiled sheet, drywall can be mounted directly on the edges of the profiled sheet.
The original solution with a profiled sheet. Thanks for sharing. Of course, heat dissipation will be much better with it, because with this design, the air gap is removed, which forms a frame for drywall.
And comfortable to wear.
The question is whether the heat carrier flow of the warm wall is enough to remove air bubbles, or will it be necessary to install an air vent on each wall. If you do not install an air vent and air will collect, how often will you have to drive away the air lock, because airing will prevent the heating from working.
The scheme that is in the pictures is working for the second season. Recently launched. It was not necessary to bleed air. But this, of course, is not obligatory for all cases.
Here a) you should not get carried away with a large number of turns, b) if the area is large, then divide the circuit into several circuits, for example, in the room that in the pictures there are three separate circuits of 54 meta c) you should not raise the heated area above 1 m ., the heat goes up, and there is no need to heat the ceiling. You just have to rack your brains to make sure that in general the number and length of lines along the plane is uniform.
Once upon a time, in a hammam, where the contour is made on the entire wall, I installed an air outlet valve under the hatch at the top point, but I never used it. It's in an apartment building.
And since I had to disconnect the line from the collector in order to drive the cork out of the warm floor. And although both the boiler and the collector were one floor below the circuit, the plug was driven away. Then, by the way, it turned out that this contour was with a crack filled with a screed. I redid it. Here's how I'm redoing it.
Yes, and especially water-heated floors do not sin with airing. These radiators in Leningrad accumulate air well, and the circuit without fittings does not slow anything down. By the way, the outlet valve on the line is a fitting, which means that the bore diameter is narrowed by 50%.
Why did I ask, the representatives of the company Kan made warm floors from acquaintances. The heated floor has a different level on the same floor and air vents are installed at the top point, which periodically bleed the air, it turns out that the air is collected although the system is airtight. Interestingly, air vents had to be installed or they were cut in just in case, because it is necessary to install a fitting and this is extra resistance.
Yes, the air in the system is formed from the water itself, and sometimes it causes a little trouble. But almost all modern boilers have an air vent in which air is collected from the system and periodically bled. If there is no auto-feed, then you have to monitor the pressure and feed the system.
As for the need for additional air vents on the lines, it is difficult to say unequivocally. For example, in all my considerable practice, I set it only once. I have never installed it again and have never had any problems with air locks. I only suffered once, but there the contour was made in an idiotic way, and with a crack in the pipe. In my opinion, there are more purely theoretical fears in this matter than practical troubles.
And the air vent at the top of the circuit is not only an extra fitting, it is also a hatch, or some other trouble that needs to be hidden.
Antifreeze doesn't have this problem. There are only increased requirements for the quality of work.
Thanks for the information about your experience, the question is how to solve the issue of air removal from the circuits in the walls. Thanks again.
Of course, the question is interesting, and I kind of answered it. For the first time I made a valve under the hatch, but I never used it. Now almost all boilers are equipped with an automatic air bleed system, and such a problem does not exist at all.
True, last year I had a cork on the windowsill, and it didn’t break through. I had to block everything except this highway until I went.
The only strain remains to control the pressure of the boiler. As air bleeds, it loses pressure, but this problem is almost gone, since the systems are mostly antifreeze.
Well, in any collector there is a drain through which you can run any highway.
There are also super-new bells and whistles for removing air from systems, but I haven’t tested them, that is, I haven’t exploited them, and I can’t tell anything about them. So far, there was no particular need for them.
Yes, I read it and still I think that the collector should be above the top point. Otherwise, there will be problems with airing, it will be necessary to call the master. And in winter, of course, you will give everything, if only it was warm.
Yes, and what problems, well, let the collector stand on top. Even easier to maintain.
It is impossible to answer this question unambiguously, since it is not always possible to make the collector higher than the main. If the cottage is 2-3 floors, and the warm wall is, for example, on the top. You can of course come up with something, but it's useless.
The system that is shown in the article was assembled in the 13th year, and after the launch there were no problems with air jams, although the collector is located at the level of the middle of the circuit. I struggled with balancing at first, since there are still warm floors on the collector, several circuits and they are lower than the collector. I had to tighten it to even out the heat distribution.
Good afternoon! Thank you very much for the good disclosure of the topic! But there are questions. How to calculate the required area of warm walls? Or do the maximum possible up to a height of one meter, and then adjust the circuit tap? What is obtained in kilowatts of the square of such a wall? Do not let her behind the closet.
Is it possible to isolate the inner wall with foam foam (30 centimeters gas block)? Will the adjacent room heat up or is it a waste of heat?
Initial data: room 5.3 by 3.5 (height 2.6) one large inner wall.
Thanks for the feedback Alexander. As for the questions, it is not surprising that they remained, because each room and building has its own characteristics in design, in the location and size of windows and doors, heat preservation, and even the requirements of the inhabitants for a comfortable temperature inside the room, in their opinion. Therefore, the final decisions are made directly at the place of arrangement.
My article is just one of many options. However, I will gladly share some thoughts, although I repeat - the final decision is yours.
As for kilowatts, it’s not difficult to find ways to calculate this indicator for any coolant in Google, but the question is, how many of these kilowatts will it take to make you feel comfortable in your room?
Of course, you can turn to specialists, and they will make all measurements and calculations for good money and draw up a project, assuring that in the future all the costs of this will pay off. Most likely so (theoretically, because I haven’t tested it in practice), but it doesn’t always work out for us. Maybe the mentality, maybe the lack of funds - I don't know. Therefore, in such cases (without a project), I take as a basis the well-known indicator of 4 running meters. pipes on square meter by gender. And from this calculation I plan the contours. What's on the floor, what's on the wall.
Balancing, i.e. valve adjustment will have to be dealt with anyway. In systems where there is more than one line, you cannot do without it.
Behind the closet is also an interesting question. If the wall behind it is cold, then it may make sense to provide at least some kind of heating inside. Well, put a couple of lines behind him along the wall or along the floor, at least to prevent excess moisture.
About internal walls. In fact, they can be ignored. If the required footage is not collected on the outer walls, then the number of threads increases (in the baseboard, in the window sills, a little higher), but if that doesn’t work, it’s probably better to put an insulator. Why heat 30 cm gas block?
Although in practice, everything can turn out exactly the opposite. The gas block will warm up and will provide uniform heating of the room. But something I have to such a decision the soul does not lie. I can not explain. On the subconscious. Therefore, I will not say anything. Here the question is spinning: what will the heated aerated concrete smell like?
Good afternoon!
I'm sorry that my question deviates somewhat from the topic outlined in the article, but it seems to me that you are the right person who can help me. Tell me, is it possible in the usual panel house, where the heating pipes initially run in the walls (there were such house designs in late Soviet times), put valves on these same heating pipes? It is very hot in winter, and the plumber working in the house says that it is impossible to insert valves, because. from this, the entire riser will overlap. But I don’t have full confidence in this plumber (somehow he doesn’t inspire confidence at all) - so I’m interested in those who might be somehow in the subject. Thanks in advance if you can give me some advice!
Hello Tanya. Well, you have to. This is the first time I hear about such a late Soviet project. Here, of course, you need to look at the place, but in theory, theoretically, if there is a riser, then there should be taps from it like batteries (in your case, these are most likely pipes of a smaller diameter) only hidden in the wall, on which you can put a valve. The whole question is how difficult it is to do this, but it can only be answered by looking at everything in place again.
Good afternoon Vadim. There is simply nothing to criticize. I will only express a few thoughts. The first is about the foil. On penofol, after all, it’s not foil, but a coating with a thickness of some microns. The fact that it does not remain and I had the opportunity to verify. But once, having looked more closely at the fragments of the screed, I noticed that this coating did not completely disappear, but only peeled off the penofol and remained on the concrete. True, I noticed this with difficulty in large pieces.
In general, I will not state anything categorically, but personally I continue to use it with spraying, perhaps for personal reassurance. In addition, the difference in cost is so insignificant that it practically does not solve anything.
As for the mesh, I agree. As for the grooves - generally wonderful. Why do a layer of plaster over the entire plane. Here is the savings. Both in terms of work and materials.
As for penofol, or isolon in the grooves - I would lay it down. Considerations are: a) it will cost a penny, because only strips in the grooves are needed; b) create cushioning for expansion-contraction; c) isolates the pipe from possible fistulas in the masonry, the wood concrete is probably not monolithic; d) a lot, a little, but still sends heat into the room.
I was glad to talk. I wish that everything works out for you.
thanks. The arbolite is exactly monolithic, but I’ll think about depreciation
Why do you need a good wall reflector? If you heat the walls themselves, and not the air inside the house, then cold air will not enter the house. Accordingly, the house will be warm. At the beginning of construction, I generally thought I would get confused by laying pipes between expanded clay blocks, but this is sooo long and expensive. I decided to make warm walls on top as in the article, but without a reflector. But I'm no expert on this, so I could be wrong. If this is wrong, correct it.
In my namesake, the main function of a reflector or insulation is guaranteed protection against masonry defects. After all, inside the masonry is necessarily plastered and the plaster closes all possible defects in its seams. Plaster twice - to the contour, etc. and after it it is expensive and time-consuming, so it’s probably better to close the contour from the masonry with a heater, and then plaster everything. The reflector is optional. In this case, from which the pictures are in the article, this was the condition of the owner, and in my deep conviction, just any sheet insulation is enough.
And the pipes with the coolant must be closed from the side of the street. Heating the wall towards the street is not only useless, but also dangerous. In frost, condensation can form in the wall, which will not lead to anything good.
Thank you master, explained everything intelligibly. Now I will know how best to make warm walls.
Good afternoon. Is it possible to make a water heated floor in a house with wooden floors? House skeleton, wooden floor logs 200x100.
Hello Timur. This business will be tedious - a water-heated floor according to wooden floors. If, of course, you show maximum ingenuity, then any business is within your reach, but…???. Everything is against this: a) the tree has a very low thermal conductivity and putting a pipe under the boards is a waste of money, b) the tree is mobile and solid cracks will appear in the floor from good heating, c) to make a floor screed on the boards - everything will crack and crumble. A dry screed for TP is not suitable - the pipe will sink in expanded clay and again money down the drain.
But in general, we have a country of domestic geniuses and 100% somewhere on the forums you can find more than one or two craftsmen who made a water TP on wooden floors and are happy to share their decisions and observations on them. I have never made such a design and have not seen how someone did it, so I can only guess how it will behave. And assumptions often do not correspond to practice.
Good afternoon!
I am doing a renovation in the bathroom, which has an external wall with a window, under which there used to be a radiator, but during the last renovation it was abolished, which is why the bathroom has a oak tree in winter. I plan to make a "warm wall". I will cover the load-bearing wall with drywall. Tell me, what should be a sandwich made of insulation, pipes, and maybe something else to make the bathroom warm?
Kind. You Vadim suggests an option simpler than a warm wall, and no less effective. Since you are planning drywall, then put thermal insulation under it, well, as usual, but leave it under the window, or, more correctly, make a niche in the drywall and install a radiator in it again. It will turn out, as it were, embedded in a drywall wall, and will look fine. Put penofol with a reflector on the wall itself behind the radiator in a niche, and everything will be OK.
And making a contour under drywall is unprofitable. 1. Gobble up the area. After all, you will need thermal insulation on the wall, at least a centimeter, if something like penofol, then a pipe - another 2 cm with fasteners, then a frame - 3 cm, then drywall - at least another 1 cm. total: 7 cm. And this is ideally, in reality, everything will turn out 10. 2. between the pipe and drywall, thanks to the frame there will be an air gap of 3 cm, and air is an excellent heat insulator. It will heat up, of course, but the efficiency will be much lower than that of a pipe in plaster.
Why don't you want to do as shown in the article? Thickness 5 cm. If your wall area is not large, then that's what you need.
Good day to all.
Tell me all the cons of my proposal.
I have planned on the 1st floor a warm floor everywhere, on the 2nd floor there are warm walls, because. the floor is wooden, the house is insulated with 100mm polystyrene foam, the windows are with 3-layer double-glazed windows.
I want to take a 2-circuit condensing boiler, under the "warm floors" it is also low-temperature.
As I understand it, you need to put 2 collectors, one per floor. Well, with warm floors it’s understandable, on the draft floor there is a waterproofing agent (film), on top of 80 mm of extruded polystyrene foam, metal mesh, pipes, pour everything with cement-sand mortar with plasticizers and tiles.
But on the second floor, I think just to put 4-5 pipe contours along the inner perimeter of the house, alternating supply and return from left to right, and then plaster with a cement-sand mortar with a plasticizer.
Have I thought of everything correctly? I look forward to comments, and thank you in advance for them.
p.z. I am in the south of Ukraine, winters are short and relatively warm.
Good day!
I plan to build a house with 2 floors + a heated basement of monolithic expanded clay concrete 30 cm + facing brick(In Ulyanovsk, in my opinion, behind the eyes of such a wall). I also plan to pour the ceiling of the first floor with expanded clay concrete 0.15. Is it possible to install underfloor heating and walls before pouring, if possible, how to implement it? Thanks in advance for your reply and for your site.
I think Viktor is correct. I think a bit too much with penoplex on the ground floor. And 50 for the eyes even here in Tatarstan, and even more so with you. Yes, that's 50. Only last year they made a room for a hairdressing salon for a neighbor (his wife's business). for backfilling expanded clay concrete, foam 30-ka and TP. Neither overflow was noticed, nor uncomfortable room temperature. Bear in mind. As for the rest, you are correct.
Good afternoon Dmitry. Just the soul rejoices that people again began to build. And then it was just a “dead season”.
For your question. Wall thickness OK! But immediately install the heating lines - I think it will be rigorous. Not in the sense that it is difficult to do the installation itself, but in the fact that the wiring will interfere with other work. After all, at this stage, the mains will be located not only in the floor and wall, there will also be sections of the supply to the boiler.
Of course, I do not know all the nuances of your project, and I represent it in my opinion. Indeed, when pouring, you will have to jump over the reinforcement and between it, and if the contour pipes still lie on top. How not to hurt.
And one more nuance peculiar to our people - a smart thought comes after. And he built it for himself, and for others, well, everything seems to be planned, and anyway, as the work was done, it was blown out more than once: “Oh, here it was necessary not to do it this way, but to do it like that.” As if it did not work out with TP. How will the walls and draft floors be ready, no matter how a more successful scheme for placing and connecting the contours comes to mind.
In short, theoretically possible. You can tighten up, calculate everything, bring everything to zero, or close to it, calculate the depth of laying pipes and do it. But how will this be done in practice….???. I did not do it.
Good day. We want to insulate the hallway. The area of the entrance hall is about 12 sq.m. And it does not have a single radiator. It is quite cold in winter. Especially the cold comes from the entrance. We didn’t make a warm floor initially, now we regret it. I don't want to put up the tiles again. We thought to install a radiator - not aesthetically pleasing and, in fact, nowhere. I thought about warm water walls. I'm trying to find information about laying pipes in the wall. Wall approximately 1 meter 30 cm long. Thickness approximately 10 cm - thickness silicate brick(I hope I wrote the correct name, light brick). Hollowing a wall is also not an option, which means laying strobes. The fact that there will be no thermal insulation is not scary, the heat will go to another room.
When using a strobe, you will have to increase the thickness of the wall. Is it possible to avoid this? Or is 10 cm thick not enough? Gypsum plaster on the walls.
thanks for the advice
Good afternoon Vasily. 10 cm for a strobe behind the eyes. It is enough to make strobes 5 cm deep. Both the circuit pipe and the strip of thermal insulation will fit freely. It will not even be so much thermal insulation as a shock absorber for expanding the pipe.
The problem is in the grommets. If you close it just like that, then it cracks. I even tried to seal it in two steps and primed everything that was possible, but still a crack appeared. And as soon as I put a strip of penofol in the strobe, that's it - there is no crack. But all the same, I close up in two steps and primer both the strobe itself and the first layer.
In this case, the grid is not needed, so the thickness of the wall will not increase. That's just the strobe must be done carefully so that cracks do not go along the wall in next room. Sometimes they showed up. Then I had to repair it.
Hello, this is the situation. connected the loggia with the room. The radiator remained on a piece of the wall under the window (the window and the door to the loggia were naturally removed). made a warm electric floor on the loggia itself, glazed the balcony. But insulated as it seems to me a little. The outer wall (reinforced concrete slab under the outer window) is insulated from the inside with 8 cm extruded polystyrene and 1 cm foil-foamed polyethylene. covered with drywall. The wall itself is not cold, but under the windowsill and immediately above it is clearly cold. I’m thinking of removing the drywall and making a water “floor” behind it. height about 70 cm, wall width 2.4 m.
I would like your opinion on what pipes to do, and whether there will be an effect.
Thanks.
Good evening Vladimir. In your situation, another solution suggests itself, a simpler one. Remove the window sill and it will immediately become clear what is happening there. Most likely the frame is not properly foamed, which is why it pulls the cold.
It is not difficult to foam the frame and the window sill. First fix this imperfection, since it will still draw cold with it, and only then, based on the result, decide whether heating is needed in the wall.
In fact, a water-heated floor is supposed to be under plaster, since it has a larger heat transfer surface and higher thermal conductivity than when installing under drywall.
In the walls sheathed with drywall, a niche is usually made in which a radiator is installed.
Hello. Your experience is very interesting. I want to make heating only with warm walls. I have a few questions. pipes use steel 25 or 32 mm, mounting it with a horizontal snake in niches concrete wall with slope and top feed. there are interruptions in electricity? The height will be up to the windowsill 95 cm, four threads, the length of the circuit is 70 meters. Will there be enough heat transfer from such a wall? Outside there will be insulation of 5 cm eps.
Good afternoon Victor. Sorry for the delayed response, I have a lot of work to do, I do not have time.
Actually, I have no experience with metal. Once I was present when the copper was being made. And he himself is always only p / p and metal-plastic.
Here's what I think. As for feeding without a pump, it's a risky business. First, you need to look at the place and estimate the slope. From the boiler and throughout the system. And secondly, to estimate the diameters of the pipes and the distribution system, then there will probably not be one circuit. Well, it's all sorted out.
About metal. After all, they don’t put it in plaster. It has more expansion than plastic, and corrosion. I don’t know how it will rot or not rot there - this is questionable, but with further finishing it will be necessary to provide for the appearance of rust spots.
With small dots (well, there the reinforcement will be close to the outdoor area, or what kind of nail will be driven into the seam of the masonry and plastered) it will be easy to handle, but here is a whole circuit.
Unless, of course, you immediately paint over it, but how can the paint under the plaster not warm up until the plaster dries?
In short, you can see for yourself - the smuts are through the roof. Do better with plastic. Stainless steel with copper is expensive.
As for enough, not enough, here it will depend not on the contour and frost, but on the heat preservation of the building. If floors, ceilings, walls and windows-doors hold heat well, then it’s not enough, of course it’s enough. Calculation for metal-plastic d16: 4 p.m. per 1 sq.m. area of the room. And you have d25, yes 70 m. This is at least 26 squares.
Sorry, I uploaded it. But think. Nothing without this.
Hello. The problem with the outer wall in the end apartment, the temperature of the wall is 14 to 18 degrees, the house is a new brick five-story building. Since there are 3 outer walls in the apartment, they cool the entire apartment, the batteries cannot cope. Is it possible to solve this problem by installing pipes in the wall and how best to do it.
This is indeed a problem Ivan. But most likely it cannot be solved by a contour into the wall. Firstly, you will have to install a pump on such a long circuit (3 walls), and then you will noticeably take heat from your neighbors. Scandal might happen.
I have faced this situation several times. In two cases, the apartment was insulated from the inside. That is, the walls were sheathed with drywall with insulation, drywall in 2 layers, insulation also in 2 layers of 5 cm each. The batteries remain in the niches. It turns out normal, and warm (I still communicate with the owners), but it eats up the area.
Once, one owner, hired prom. climbers, and they insulated the outside. They also did it carefully, but I can’t say how it was then.
Sergey, welcome! Did you happen to come across the newfangled “Warm baseboard” system? The reviews are positive, on the Forumhouse there are even attempts to handicraft homemade designs(the topic is "Warm baseboard (water) - made in the Russian Federation" - made by hand). If you came across, how would you characterize this system: a fashionable fenka or a smart thing?
I rarely go to Forumhouse, I don't have enough time. I heard about the system, the reviews are definitely positive. And artisanal, I will do it myself. After all, I have floors along the bottom of the log house, so that the main contour at the corners does not bend at 90 degrees, I decided to use an additional one. I haven't thought about how to arrange it yet, but I'll think of something. And so the pipe will go cool under the log.
As I launch, then I will accurately characterize.
It's clear. At the Forumhouse, people have already tried to make home-made versions, the name of the corresponding topic has already been given. It turns out. He himself caught fire with this plinth as an additional source of heat and an already running warm floor. I just haven’t decided whether the plinth will be industrial or self-made. Industrial for the price is very biting. Good luck!
We'll do it ourselves. I'm still waiting for the company to work with. Well, to hold in your hands, "sniff, pick."
I'll take a look at Forumhouse. I have several bookmarks from there. In terms of autonomy, I have to build on the island, and in terms of dry wood - Kelo.
Where is it? I know only the island-town of Sviyazhsk. Dead pine?
Sviyazhsk is a civilized island. I have in Zeleny Bor. The island is inhabited, but there are no joys of scientific and technical progress on it. Electricity - generator and solar panels, heating - firewood. But the nature is virgin and places Pts. many.
Dead pine, suitable for felling, is obtained only in the northern forests. It's called Kelo. I still want to ride and touch it with my hands, “pick it, sniff it”. Expensive.
Hello! We have corner apartment, we are going to insulate the wall with a “water-heated floor”. Is it possible to just hang the pipes on the wall and cover with drywall? Or is a reflector obligatory needed and is it better to just plaster? At the same time, mold will not form, does the wallpaper hold well on a warm wall?
Drywall, Zhenya, also has a frame. That is, the pipe will be at a distance of 3 cm from the drywall. And this means that at first it will heat the space between the wall and the drywall, then the drywall itself, which will already give off heat to the room.
I don't know what will happen because I've never done it.
I also never did wallpaper on warm walls. Or tiles, or plaster for painting.
Mold appears where there is poor ventilation and dampness. Warm walls are usually very dry.
Good afternoon. Need advice. There is a heating project. Heating is provided only by TP. Here's what I'm afraid. The walls are thick, as a result, the width of the window sill is 500 mm. Two windows in the wet area - one in the bathroom, the other in the kitchen, where the sink is opposite the window. I'm afraid of condensation, there are no radiators. There was an idea to make loops from the TP under the windowsill. It is clear that the window sill will be stone or tile. I'm afraid of an airlock. Or can this problem be solved by placing a collector with TP loops, to which window sill heating will be connected above the level of these window sills? On the manifold, there will be an automatic air vent. Does such a scheme have the right to exist? Or are there simpler and more ready-made solutions? I would be grateful for an answer.
Hello Vladislav. The owner of the pool shown in the article had exactly the same concerns about the contour of the window sills. Just one on one.
As a result, they agreed that I drew a contour for him in those. room, made an open loop there above the level of the window sills and returned the return line again along the window sills to the collector, which is located below the level of the window sills.
We agreed that if a traffic jam suddenly forms (his guess), I will cut the loop in the upper part and put an air vent there. I categorically refused to put it on right away - I can’t stand fittings in contours.
Three years have passed since then - the air vent was not required. Baksik regularly collects air from the entire system and, if necessary, bleeds (the same air vent, only built into the boiler).
By the way, all the window sills and TPs of the first floor (a pool and a boiler with collectors in the basement) sit on the same collector and everything heats up normally. I didn't even bother with balancing. So, slightly tightened the TP of the basement and that's it.
Yes, more. Before starting each line, it must be filled with coolant. Those. you leave the return line not connected (above the bucket), open the supply and as soon as it rushes out of the return line, close the supply. The vacuum will not let the coolant flow and you connect the return line to the collector.
The amount of air that gets into the system in this case is not able to form a plug, and will be removed by the boiler. It is only necessary at first to monitor the working pressure and feed the system.
hello master. I am, so to speak, your colleague from Perm, I have been doing SO since 2006. I also want to open my own website, so I decided to see how people work on the Internet. I read your answers, everything is written very competently, intelligibly there is now someone to look up to. The only thing is not clear why you do not work with cross-linked polyethylene. The material is simply excellent and has no equal (this is my personal opinion). One of the main advantages of it is very difficult to damage during installation. You can safely walk along the laid loops, you are not afraid of creases (it is enough to warm the place of the crease with a hair dryer and it takes its initial shape). I have been using it in warm floors and walls for 5 years already and there are no complaints, I didn’t see it running on the fittings (if the sealing ring didn’t lift up during installation). I use the usual fittings from metal-plastic (GF, Valtek), the pipe is also mainly Valtek, if the client insists, then REXAU (but I don’t see much point in it, it’s also a cross-link in Africa). In general, I advise you to try, the main thing is not to take cheap fakes (it may turn out to be ordinary HDPE). Good luck to you in our not easy business and good customers.
Thanks Volodya. With cross-linked polyethylene somehow did not work out for me. At first, someone responded dismissively, so I treated him, but I myself did not work, and the clientele did not insist.
And now I rarely work at all, 57 already. More and more I observe what has already been done, but small repairs, service staff are shorter. Yes, I run two sites. Go to https://starper55plys.ru, it's just about site building and site maintenance.
If I suddenly happen to work with the joint venture, of course, I will definitely move the article, I will describe my impressions.
Hello! I have a question about heat loss, I put a metapol pipe in the weso insulation, I didn’t put a foil gasket between the plaster and the insulation, I filled the space where the pipes were laid, I foamed the glue with foam for foam plastic. Doubts about the fact that you didn’t put a foil gasket and the heat will go to the wall, or is foil still not necessary and the heating of the insulation will be good?
Don't bother with foil. In plaster, there is little use for it. There is an opinion that it reflects infrared radiation. But no one measured this radiation, and conversations are at the level of rumors. If you put it on, it's good; if you don't, it's not bad either.
Good afternoon. There are 3x room apartment 2 rooms for children are bordered by expansion joints, the walls are cold. I want to insulate them with warm walls. The apartment has a 2-circuit boiler. If we take the supply that goes to the batteries, won’t it turn out that the last battery will be cold until the water reaches the walls and cools down? I am going to lay in 3 threads 30 cm between them, the total length of the system will increase by 30 m, approximately. How then can you finish the wall if the wallpaper is not allowed? Thank you for the idea.
Good evening Yuri. The contour must be made with a separate thread. There are many reasons for this, so take it for granted. Under the boiler or somewhere near the boiler, make a collector into two pairs, one for the batteries, one for the circuit.
Finishing can be done for painting. Simple, Venetian, etc. Now such kindness is a dime a dozen.
Hello.
Please help me understand with an example.
The room has dimensions of 5 x 4 m, the floor area is 20 m2. Based on the proportion of 4 p.m. pipes per 1 m2 on the floor, this room requires 80 running meters. lay pipes in the walls. The room has two external walls, two internal. Let's assume that only the outer walls will be warm. Then you need 80 running meters. / (5 + 4) = 9 threads on the wall. Considering that there should be 20-30 cm between the threads, it is not rational to drown above 1 m from the floor, and there are windows in the walls, this alignment looks erroneous.
It turns out that all walls must be made warm - both external and internal. Then you will need only 4 or 5 threads. It seems to be good, but the room has doors, cabinets, a bed, a table. And the height of warm walls should be 6-7 threads. And again it rests against the windows, they start from 80 cm from the floor.
According to the layout, it is quite possible to make 4 heating threads along the outer walls. This is about 50% of the required heat loss compensation. The rest will have to be collected with radiators in especially cold months.
But then the heating system turns out to be more complicated, the layer of plaster is thicker, there is more work.
There is no smell of savings at the construction stage, one can only expect that such a scheme will be more comfortable in operation.
Am I understanding everything correctly, am I wrong?
And one more question. The following phrase often comes across: on the first floor we heat with underfloor heating, on the second - with radiators. What is the reason for such discrimination of the second floor?
Or I’ll ask differently - is it practical to make warm floors and / or walls on the second floor in a private house?
P.S. House made of warm ceramics, Moscow region
Good evening Alexander. I understand what you want perfect option heating. Everybody wants. And it is right. Only the most ideal option is selected from a combination of technical and creative solutions and compromises. You understand what is wrong in your message - there is no creative component. And there are no compromises here.
Firstly, 25 cm between the threads is optimal, but not only this way and nothing else. It can be smaller, 15 - 20. You can narrow it under the windows. There are more and denser threads on the outer walls, smaller and wider on the inner ones, that is, stretch some threads around the perimeter, then wrap only along the outer wall.
If there is a lot of furniture on the walls, then it is better not to make them warm at all. One thread on the window sills with a return line under the windows, the rest to the floors. By the way, combi floors-walls in my opinion the best option, you just need to think about what, where and how much, according to the layout, and the intended operation. You have the total length, figure out how to distribute.
Also, the 80 m contour on the walls is too much. At least it should be divided into two circuits. It is possible to wind a hundred-meter spiral along the floor, and in the walls the contour is narrow and long. I can’t show off the heat transfer numbers right off the bat, but from practice I remember that 50 m is already prohibitive. Although he did, but there was also a pool and combi walls-water heating-dryer-air heating. In short, for each specific case, one has to proceed from specific conditions. And of course, the trade-off between convenience and cost. Something more at the expense of something less. Also very individual. Another factor is peace of mind. Do you understand? many go to additional expenses, as long as you have peace of mind.
On the warm floors on the second floor, someone may say something, but I live only with warm floors on two floors and no problems (the first floor is brick + expanded clay, the second log house), although for peace of mind I made spare ones on the collector pairs, in which case to stretch a line for radiators. And I bought radiators, they still lie. That's it.
I don’t know if my answer will help you, but it’s such a thing that construction is like repair: you rely on your uncle - you risk having problems later for your own money, you will do it yourself - you will have to strain to the limit, learn, think, figure out, decide.
If so, write.
Thank you for such a detailed and quick response. He left to read, count, decide. Therefore, he dropped out of communication. I did not leave the crossroads, I stand in thought. Thanks again.
P.S.
Turns out I'm not the only one who wants the perfect circuit...
So this is quite normal!
In this article, we will analyze in detail all the stages of installing water-heated walls and floors. What are water warm walls and floors? This is the so-called heating system with heated water circulating through pipes. Before proceeding with the installation of walls, a beginner in this matter needs to master elementary theoretical knowledge. Then you can proceed directly to practical activities.
After reading the article, you will learn a competent approach to work. You can directly proceed with the step-by-step installation of the walls. You will also learn certain nuances when conducting installation work. Thus, the knowledge gained will allow you to either start the installation yourself warm water walls, or fully be able to direct and control the work of specialists.
To the question of customers of installation works. Quite often the owners of baths order warm water walls and floors, because the conditions environment in the steam room they are required to warm the room well. For example, in a Turkish bath, a hamam, the temperature of the floor and walls is maintained at around 40 degrees, and the air humidity is 100%. In a Russian bath, the optimum temperature of the walls is 60 degrees, with an air humidity of 60%.
Preparation and insulation of walls
Consider an example of installing water-heated walls and floors using the example of a bathhouse with the above environmental parameters. First you need to decide on the location of the steam room. The walls themselves do not have to be high. Naturally, a prerequisite for them is a perfectly flat and plastered surface. So, the use of a gas silicate block will achieve the desired result.
Then the heat-insulating panel is installed from, however, its fastening should not be made of plastic material, since the intended heat in the steam room can melt fasteners. The best option will "plant" the plate on a special foam. Moreover, it is necessary to apply foam on the plate twice for better fastening and press the extruded polystyrene foam against the wall also twice. The wall is pre-dusted with a primer and treated with a waterproofing layer. As for floor insulation, the difference from wall insulation is that a polyethylene film is placed on top of the heat-insulating panel made of extruded polystyrene foam.
- Simply press onto extruded polystyrene foam. Then there will be no gap between the mesh and the polystyrene.
- Attach with a chemical dowel with two washers to achieve a distance between the mesh and the polystyrene of about one centimeter. This will allow the pipe to be located further from the wall, due to this it is better to warm the room. A chemical dowel must be used if the wall masonry is based on a gas block (or foam block). In case brick or other material is used, conventional anchors can be dispensed with as fastening. According to the technique of performing work, it is more convenient to first cut the mesh, then fix it.
Installation of pipes for warm walls
The next step is to install a warm wall pipe. It is much more pleasant for a specialist, as well as a simple layman, to work with a metal-plastic construction. Since it bends without problems and takes the necessary shape. The diameter of the pipes should be about 16-20 millimeters. It is advisable to use a pipe bender. If a specialist uses metal-plastic pipes, it is very easy to observe the necessary step between them. The variable step of laying pipelines of the warm wall system allows you to achieve uniform distribution of heat in the room. Usually, for this, in a section of 1-1.2 meters from the floor, metal-plastic pipes are laid in increments of 10-15 centimeters; in a section of 1.2-1.8 meters from the floor - the step increases to 20-25 centimeters, and above 1.8 meters - the step of the pipes is about thirty, forty centimeters. In this case, the direction of movement of the coolant is always taken from the floor to the ceiling. Particular attention must be paid to ensure that the pipe lines are mounted evenly.
When mounting pipes in the steam room, four contours are obtained - three on the walls and one on the floor. The best option is one circuit per wall. In the case of an external wall, compensation for heat loss during external environment, in the case of an interior wall - two rooms will be heated at once. The dimensions of the contour depend on the area of \u200b\u200bthe room, it must go inextricably. It is advisable not to make frequent turns of the pipe one hundred and eighty degrees, because of this part of the heat will be lost, and also to organize joints. Each circuit has its own supply and return pipes. On one of the walls, it is imperative to leave space for two pipes for the floor. It is better to insulate the main pipes of the warm wall that go beyond the steam room so that it is not too hot in the recreation area of the bath, and also so that the pipe gives off less heat.
Pipe loops can be fixed with any device, as long as they remain intact. For example, a direct suspension is taken, bent in a suitable way and twisted into dowels pre-installed in the wall. In places where the pipes will pass through the corner of the room, it is recommended to make recesses in advance, thereby increasing the turning radius. Otherwise, either the corner may be bent, or the pipe of the warm wall will become visible.
"Filling" warm walls
Next, on already installed pipes the second layer of poppy mesh is attached. The second layer of mesh is necessary in order to better distribute heat and keep the solution well. It is required to start pouring concrete from the floor, allowing it to harden well (in time it takes one week, up to a maximum of ten days). Then take on the warm walls - set the formwork at a distance of three centimeters from the pipe. After laying concrete on the wall. Well, of course, plaster, and put ceramic tiles on top. Warm walls and floor are ready!
Thus, the installation of warm water walls is sufficient simple technology, which does not require special costs forces and the use of welding or metal-cutting tools. Installation of warm walls is practically no different from floor heating systems. This design provides comfortable microclimate conditions in the room, has a beneficial effect on health. And if desired, warm walls can be made with your own hands.
» is well known to Russians and has been used for heating apartments and private houses for decades. But the analogue - warm walls - is just gaining popularity. Let's study the European experience and understand in what situations warm walls are indispensable and beneficial, and when it is better to do with traditional heating methods.
Warm walls - the pros and cons of the system
Warm walls for home heating are widely used in many European countries. For example, in Germany, entire residential complexes are being built, where the premises are heated only by warm walls without installing radiators. At the same time, domestic experts do not cease to assert that the system " warm wall» is good as an additional source of heat. But not the only one.
Advantages of warm walls:
– High efficiency. Manufacturers and sellers of this equipment claim a figure of 85%. Against 60% of central heating radiators.
– Large heated surface area. Due to which the air in the room heats up faster, which allows you to save a lot on resource consumption.
– Unique thermal effect. The heating temperature of the coolant is much lower than in traditional batteries. And this also contributes to savings. Regular expenses for housing heating are reduced by 6-11% in the next month after the installation of the system.
- Comfortable atmosphere. Warm walls belong to the so-called radiant heating. Unlike the convection system, this heating is as close as possible to natural heat and has a positive effect on the condition of humans and animals. In addition, with radiant heating, there is practically no circulation of dust in the air, which facilitates breathing and improves the well-being of residents.
– Lack of open heating elements. Which, of course, excludes burns (especially in a house with small children) and does not overheat the air. It is much easier to maintain the optimal level of humidity during the heating season.
- Among the advantages of warm walls, comfort occupies the first place. A person can talk for a long time about technical subtleties, for example, about the favorable temperature difference between the supply and return circuits, but first of all, he will evaluate this particular indicator - whether he is comfortable or not in a room with warm walls. Pleasant tactile sensations, when the palm touches not a cold, but a warm wall, are complemented by an obvious feeling of warmth in the whole room, and not just near the radiator or underfoot.
Disadvantages of warm walls:
– Installation costs. In addition to buying the product itself, you will have to pay for installation and related work.
- Difficult to install and operate. The point here is not in the system itself, but in the fact that it is located inside the wall, which requires appropriate internal and external surface finishing, including rough finishing, heat and waterproofing, installation of heat-reflecting panels, etc. Further, during the operation of the system, even the most reliable, malfunctions may occur. Access to pipes or cables will be possible after the dismantling of several layers of the wall. And this leads to additional expenses and then requires unplanned expenses for repeated repairs. True, you can avoid them using for wall decoration, for example, not concrete screed, and removable bezels.
- Requirements for the interior. A room with warm walls should be freed as much as possible from wall furniture and accessories. Such as carpets, large panels, walls, wardrobes. Otherwise, the installation of the system is considered useless. Heat will not pass through the additional barrier and will not warm the room.
- Failure to agree. Water warm walls, however, like floors, are an option for private houses. In the apartment, the connection of such systems to the central water supply and heating is prohibited by law. No authority will approve such a plan. Electrical systems are suitable for the apartment. They are quite easy to install, but costly for large rooms in terms of electricity consumption. The way out is to install warm walls in one room: a nursery or a bathroom.
Scope of application, variants and general installation rules
Warm walls are intended for the following rooms:
- Halls and living rooms
- Auditoriums, classrooms, conference rooms (for non-residential buildings)
- Children's rooms (safe, adjustable, maintain the optimal level of humidity for the child)
- Bathrooms (help fight mold and mildew)
- Swimming pools, baths, saunas
Warm walls are water and electric
A hot coolant, namely water, circulates in warm water walls. Hot water enters the pipeline from the installed heating boiler. The pipeline is connected to the collector, a circulation pump and a thermostat must be installed. The pump will be responsible for the speed of movement of the coolant, respectively, and for the speed of heating the room, and the thermostat will ensure that the optimum temperature of the system is maintained. Installation of such a complex of equipment will cost more, but it will save you from problems in operation.
Water walls are assembled from copper, metal-plastic, polypropylene pipes or stainless steel of small diameter. Stacked in only two ways - vertically or horizontally. The “snail” method, characteristic of a warm floor, thanks to which it is possible to master the heated area more densely, while laying the pipeline more compactly, is excluded due to the formation of air congestion.
How to mount water system? The walls are cleaned and leveled, heat and waterproofing are laid, heat-reflecting panels are installed, and the pipeline is installed. A special supporting mesh (lattice) is placed on top, on which plaster or drywall is applied.
The type of wall that is planned to be heated is important. If this is an external wall, insulation is required. As well as the use of frost-resistant materials. If it is internal, you can do without insulation and, thereby, kill two birds with one stone. If "warm walls" are mounted on an adjacent structure, then the heat will spread in both directions - about 70% of the heat will fall on the main room, and 30% on the adjacent one.
When laying pipes in the wall, you must follow the step. Chaotic installation does not contribute to the uniform distribution of heat over the entire area of \u200b\u200bthe room. The standard step is:
- At a distance of 1.2 meters from the floor, pipes are laid in increments of 10-15 cm
- At a distance of 1.2 m to 1.8 m - step 20-25 cm
- At a distance of 1.8m. - step 30-40 cm
It is clear that when installing warm walls at the facility, the master takes into account the features of the room, including the height of the ceilings.
Before closing the pipeline of warm walls, it is tested at maximum pressure for 1.5-2 hours. If no leaks are found, further finishing is carried out.
Electric warm walls are presented on the market in two types - cable and film.
Cable heat-insulated floors are made of a single-core or two-core cable with a diameter of 2-10 mm. They are connected to the mains, for which they use a separate line so as not to overload the main one. Installation of the electrical system differs little from the water system: cleaning, leveling the wall, insulation, installation of the mounting frame, cable laying, finishing.
The cable is laid horizontally or vertically, keeping an average distance of 10 cm from each line. At the same time, they should not intersect and be away from other heating and electrical equipment at a distance of less than 10 cm.
Film warm walls are sold in the form of electric mats. They represent the same cable, only thin, fixed on fiberglass or textile mesh. The mats are twisted into rolls, when buying, the sellers simply cut off the desired “piece”, according to the dimensions of the customer’s wall. Electric mats are easy to install - they do not require the installation of a frame and any fastener. Mounted on the wall with a special adhesive. This option is the most beneficial for small spaces. Due to the thin cable, the area of the room is not significantly reduced, i.e. installation of warm walls "does not eat up" meters. And the power that the mats have is not the largest compared to conventional electrical systems, will slightly affect the amount of utility bills.
Film systems also include infrared warm walls. They are produced in the form of the thinnest polymer film, inside which heating elements are soldered in the form of flexible wires. Such a film is universal - suitable for floors, walls and ceilings. It is connected to the network, controlled by a thermostat, fits under any decorative coating. In some cases, wall mounting of infrared film is acceptable.
- Temperature control accurate to the degree
- Timer
- Delayed start
- Switch on and work only at night
- Remote control
- Room cooling in summer
Take advantage of our "warm walls" heating system.
In our harsh climate, simple batteries sometimes fail to perform their function. In this case, such type of heating as "warm walls" is recommended. This heat supply scheme has long won the hearts of economical residents. Western Europe, and in some cases this type of heating is indeed the most optimal and safe.
Description
A typical design of a warm wall provides for the location of the heating system pipeline inside the wall. At the same time, radiators become absolutely unnecessary.
Uniform distribution of heat in the room will increase comfort in the room, reduce its dust content and reduce the cost of heating the coolant.
Pros of using
Advantages wall heating are as follows. Thus, heat transfer is carried out by means of radiant transmission - both people and animals feel comfortable when the temperature in the room becomes several degrees lower. Due to the optimal fuel consumption for heating in one season, it will be possible to save about 10% of energy resources.
In addition, "warm walls" reduce convective air flows in the room several times. Due to this, dust does not disperse into the air, and living conditions for those living in the house are improved - this is especially important for people with chronic respiratory diseases. Finally, for the effective operation of the "warm walls" system, installation will be required circulation pumps less power than in conventional heating systems.
Places of use
Heating installed in the walls belongs to radiant heat exchange systems, therefore it is recommended to install it in rooms with a minimum amount of furniture. The most optimal type of room for installing warm walls is as follows:
- rooms with a small amount of equipment and furniture - various offices, study rooms, bedrooms, corridors;
- premises in which there are no conditions for the installation of other heating systems: workshops, garages, bathrooms, swimming pools;
- rooms with high humidity, in which the use of a water-heated floor is inefficient due to the high heat consumption for evaporation - swimming pools, baths, saunas, bathrooms and laundries;
- any type of premises for which one type of heating is not enough.
Payment
When considering heating installed in the walls in a private house, special attention is paid to the issue of the temperature range of the external walls of the building. If the insulating layers are installed outside the house, then the freezing point of the wall will be transferred towards the insulation. Therefore, enclosing structures can be made of non-frost-resistant materials. The disadvantages of this method include an increase in energy costs - after all, heating will affect not only internal walls, but also enclosing structures.
You can place a heater from the side of the room. In this case, the freezing point will shift inward. Therefore, the walls must be insulated with frost-resistant material - otherwise they may freeze through and condensation will appear on them. The same problems arise when installing warm walls without the use of insulation.
Erroneous estimates of wall thickness and miscalculations in design can lead to significant heat losses.
In general, the built-in heating scheme in the section of the wall is as follows:
In this case, the following materials are used:
- pipes with a diameter of 12-17 mm and steel clamping tires for pipes of this diameter;
- screws and dowels made of stainless steel;
- reinforcing or metal grid, the cell of which has a size of about 50 mm;
- plaster with cement or lime plaster in the amount necessary to cover a thickness of about 10 mm above the mesh;
- - according to European energy saving requirements - 2 cm thick, thermal conductivity of 2.0 m² / kW.
Installation instructions
To mount warm walls, the surface of the walls themselves must first be carefully leveled. Before you start, you need to provide for the places where the wiring and junction boxes will be installed. The wiring itself is laid in the top layer of plaster only after the final installation of the wall pipeline.
Applying a heat insulator
A layer of heat-insulating material of a high degree of rigidity is installed on the load-bearing wall. Typically, a rigid foam insulation board with an adhesive surface is used for this purpose. Such a plate is laid on the surface of the wall from the bottom up. Then the edge insulating tape is pulled between the wall and the floor surface.
With the help of dowels and screws, the main elements for installation are fixed - steel clamping tires. They must be firmly attached to the load-bearing wall through the thickness of the heat-insulating plates. The distance between each fixed tire should be no more than 1 meter.
Piping and finishing
Now we are laying the pipeline. In this case, it is necessary to carefully insulate the section of the pipeline going from the boiler to the wall in order to reduce heat loss. Pipe installation must be started from the floor surface with a given step.
After installation of the system, it is covered with plaster. This work should be done in two stages. The first layer is applied to the reinforcing mesh frames. When this layer hardens, a plaster mesh is attached to the wall and the final layer of plaster is applied.
If the wall is planned to be pasted over with wallpaper, then a "strobe" grid must be installed on the final layer of plaster. It is impregnated with a special dispersion that prevents the penetration of condensate and prevents the appearance of cracks in the finish layer.
The thickness of the entire plaster layer above the wall heating pipeline must not exceed 30 mm. The electrical wiring is carried out on completely dried plaster in compliance with all safety measures.
Examination
The supply of coolant to the wall pipeline is allowed only after the complete drying of the finishing plaster layer.
It should be noted that the water flow rate in such a heating system must be at least 25 m / s - at a lower speed, air locks may occur.
The control and start system must be designed to regulate either the water supply or the return flow.
When included in a project
Wall-mounted built-in heating can be taken into account in the house construction project itself. In this case, the pipeline can be poured with concrete. To do this, after the installation of the heating network, the formwork is exposed and covered with pouring.
Built-in "warm walls" can serve not only to heat the room, but also to cool it. To do this, you just need to let the chilled water through the pipeline. This type of cooling is much more preferable than the usual air conditioners - after all, the room is cooled naturally when total absence drafts.
Water heating, closed in the wall, can be used to heat two adjacent rooms. In this case, the interior partitions should be made of heat-conducting material - brick or concrete. For this in interior walls pipes of intra-wall heating without a heat-insulating layer are fastened.
Thus, the walls will heat both rooms at the same time. So compactly solve the problem of heating several rooms. And in combination with the "warm floor" system, such heating will be most effective.
